'Arrest the Pope' - Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens (UK)

[andres...]

RICHARD DAWKINS, the atheist campaigner, is planning a legal ambush to have the Pope arrested during his state visit to Britain “for crimes against humanity”.

Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, the atheist author, have asked human rights lawyers to produce a case for charging Pope Benedict XVI over his alleged cover-up of sexual abuse in the Catholic church.

The pair believe they can exploit the same legal principle used to arrest Augusto Pinochet, the late Chilean dictator, when he visited Britain in 1998.

The Pope was embroiled in new controversy this weekend over a letter he signed arguing that the “good of the universal church” should be considered against the defrocking of an American priest who committed sex offences against two boys. It was dated 1985, when he was in charge of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which deals with sex abuse cases.

Benedict will be in Britain between September 16 and 19, visiting London, Glasgow and Coventry, where he will beatify Cardinal John Henry Newman, the 19th-century theologian.

Dawkins and Hitchens believe the Pope would be unable to claim diplomatic immunity from arrest because, although his tour is categorised as a state visit, he is not the head of a state recognised by the United Nations.

They have commissioned the barrister Geoffrey Robertson and Mark Stephens, a solicitor, to present a justification for legal action.

The lawyers believe they can ask the Crown Prosecution Service to initiate criminal proceedings against the Pope, launch their own civil action against him or refer his case to the International Criminal Court.

Dawkins, author of The God Delusion, said: “This is a man whose first instinct when his priests are caught with their pants down is to cover up the scandal and damn the young victims to silence.”

Hitchens, author of God Is Not Great, said: “This man is not above or outside the law. The institutionalised concealment of child rape is a crime under any law and demands not private ceremonies of repentance or church-funded payoffs, but justice and punishment."

Last year pro-Palestinian activists persuaded a British judge to issue an arrest warrant for Tzipi Livni, the Israeli politician, for offences allegedly committed during the 2008-09 conflict in Gaza. The warrant was withdrawn after Livni cancelled her planned trip to the UK.

“There is every possibility of legal action against the Pope occurring,” said Stephens. “Geoffrey and I have both come to the view that the Vatican is not actually a state in international law. It is not recognised by the UN, it does not have borders that are policed and its relations are not of a full diplomatic nature.”



Resource: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7094310.ece

[Sharpie]

Hahahahaha!!! Sorry, but as much as I think Dawkins is kind of a dick (he has a lot of good points but definitely has a huge ego), I think this is awesome. Dude has major guts.  

And in all seriousness, even if nothing much comes of this, I hope this makes a HUGE point to everyone in the world: that the pope is not infallible, that the Catholic church is a mess, and that the poor children who were abused should be our first priority.

The perpetrators should be held accountable. All of them.

[Das Daniel!]

Is it just me, or does this sound a bit over the top? Sure, I think that if the pope knew about this and did nothing that he should be punished, if there's a law against it. But I think in the end, it's mainly the priests who committed the acts that should be punished. In my opinion...

[janusz]

I don't now enough to take part in this discussion.

[andres...]

I hope this makes a HUGE point to everyone in the world: that the pope is not infallible

In my opinion that would be the most important thing. A wake up call.

[Das Daniel!]

In my opinion that would be the most important thing. A wake up call.

But most people already know that he's not. Even catholic people in their hearts know that he's just a man. It's the people high up in the church that need to change. They need to stop disseminating this terrible belief.

But honestly, I was raised protestant and we believe that the bible is the only teaching that should be followed. There's not even a biblical reason why there should be a pope.

[andres...]

But honestly, I was raised protestant and we believe that the bible is the only teaching that should be followed. There's not even a biblical reason why there should be a pope.

If you believe there shouldn't be a pope at all, why the idea of arresting him is over the top for you?

[Sharpie]

they know he's fallible but keep on protecting him? come on now, if this was ANYONE else... people would be practically stoning him. A child's stolen innocence is still the one crime that everyone thinks is despicable. It's only because this involves the 'sacred' (what a joke, huh?) Catholic church that people are being reluctant. If this was any other top ranking official he would be disgraced and sent to jail so fast his ass would already be hurting on the way out of court...

[Basti]

Oh I thought the pope was still a bishop governing all bishops. Arresting the pope is totally absurd. It is the bishops in that area that should persecute those, but the message was directed to the pope so the pope holds the power now. To the pope it is the violation of moral and conduct practice of being a priests. And I thought the Church hasn't yet decide whether to persecute this.

Of course he is infallible, but still he is a leader. But still it is a disgrace if he will not act, which is correct. Still the priest committed the crimes violating the laws against a national constitution but also the ethical laws practiced by the priests around the world. So both government and the Church are responsible for this. 

Why there is a pope, look into history books during the persecution of Christians. Peter was the first leader of the early Christians just like Christ when he was teaching and leading the believers during his life. So it became a tradition of having a leader, a successor is needed to maintain order, but of course if look the history of the church there is good and bad stories, just like any empire. So the Roman catholics are centralized.

The protestants don't believe in the Church because during Martin Luther it was the dark ages of the Church, priests are selling repentance and other issues. That is the spark of Church Reformation but still believing in the same God, just disposing having a leader of the whole army of faithfuls.

[Sharpie]

Yeah, he's a leader. A leader in charge of people who did horrible things. And then shuffling it under the rug. I don't think there should be any question whether or not to persecute. This is wrong. He and the others should be charged.

Arresting the pope is totally absurd.

Why? What makes him any different than any other leader or politician who would have done something like this. I'm continually baffled that people think he should be treated differently, like he's this really special person. If this was anyone else, like I've already said, people would be at his throats. He'd be disgraced. Why should it make a rat's ass of a difference if he's the 'spiritual leader' of a huge business (because let's be honest, that's what the Catholic church is. A multi-billion dollar business)?

But I'm basically repeating what I just said, so I'll leave it at that. And you can choose to read or ignore. 

[Robert]

What annoys me more is that our government are apparently spending £20m  on this visit. Dawkins can do what he likes, I'm pretty sure we all know that the Pope isn't going to be arrested, either because his people decide he shouldn't come, or because the government simply wouldn't allow him to be arrested.

As for whether he deserves it, I have no idea. There have been some reports that it wasn't actually Ratzinger who approved the relocation of the priest, and I don't know if there's evidence to suggest that he was aware of the incidents. But if he was aware of these crimes, and did cover them up, then at least in this country, that would be a crime. I don't know about Germany. 

[Sharpie]

What annoys me more is that our government are apparently spending £20m  on this visit.

Really? Wow. 

[Iris]

Let’s say in Bible, God had also punished guilty people. Why is the pope over the top like this? He is only a human like everyone. If a person who has much power, he/she can kill someone, where is the law? Law is rules that everyone has to follow.

The pope should give us the fair and detailed explanation. He is now escaped from law. If he really doesn’t know about sexual abuse, why does he scare to be arrested?

[Basti]

Ok. I don't read about the issue. What does the pope exactly do with the insane Irish priests who committed crime against the innocent children? correct me if i'm wrong.

But the problem is the Pope can't be arrested because of sovereign immunity as what I have read from the other forums. A proper investigation would be the answer if the pope has committed a crime or not.

[Robert]

Ok. I don't read about the issue. What does the pope exactly do with the insane Irish priests who committed crime against the innocent children? correct me if i'm wrong.

But the problem is the Pope can't be arrested because of sovereign immunity as what I have read from the other forums. A proper investigation would be the answer if the pope has committed a crime or not.

When he was an Archbishop in Germany, the Pope was in charge of a priest who molested children. The church learned of this priest's crimes, and instead of turning him over to the authorities, they simply relocated him. It is alleged that the Pope was the person who covered the crimes up, and relocated the priest. If this is true, then it's certainly a crime.

Dawkins' lawyers don't actually think the Pope does have diplomatic immunity for a few reasons. They might be right, but I presume they'll still need to obtain a warrant for his arrest, and I honestly can't imagine anybody giving them one.